His object all sublime
He will achieve in time —
To let the punishment fit the crime —
The punishment fit the crime;
And make each prisoner pent
Unwillingly represent
A source of innocent merriment!
Of innocent merriment!— from The Mikado by Gilbert and Sullivan
A Good Week For The Death Penalty
This week the Commonwealth of Virginia put the DC Sniper, John Allen Muhammed, to death by lethal injection. His accomplice and fellow trigger guy, Lee Boyd Malvo, gets to live out his days in prison. He was too young to get the needle. Not quite 18. But for a few months, he would have been killed, too.
In Ohio, the State is playing around with the idea of switching from the the three drug “cocktail” to a single drug protocol that can be used by stabbing the needle into a muscle if a good vein can’t be found. It seems like the Ohio executioners couldn’t find a good vein after 18 attempts on Romell Broom and the Governor had to call off the execution.
It seems that both Ohio and Texas are trying their damnedest to catch up to Texas as the States who kill the most criminals. It’s an uphill battle. Texas kills a lot of criminals. And pretty damn fast, too.
The Death Penalty Doesn’t Work and Doesn’t Even Feel Good
I’ve heard of two reasons why the death penalty exists at all:
- Retribution – this is the “eye for an eye” argument
- Deterrence – if murderers know they will die it will make them less prone to murder
Sure, it feels good to call for the head of high profile killers. Most certainly, Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, will be facing the death penalty. The 9/11 terrorists that are about to go on trial in New York are facing the death penalty. For these folks we, as a society, want justice to be swift and severe. Well, we’ll get severe. Swift is another story. The court martial of Maj. Hasan and the trials of the 9/11 terrorists will go on forever providing vicarious thrills for thousands of cable TV viewers and fodder for the “fair and balanced” network screamers.
In the end, though, it’s always a little bit anti-climatic. Once the criminal has been put down we quickly forget what it was all about and move on to the next high profile atrocity. More to the point, it doesn’t “undo” the crime. Killing the killer doesn’t bring the dead back to life. It rarely heals the broken lives of those the murders affected.
Deterrence is a joke. You can watch the news any night of the week to listen about drive-by shootings, gang-related murders, drug deals gone wrong or wronged boyfriends going nuts and killing their lovers and, sometimes, the whole family. The death penalty does not deter nut cases, whack jobs or people who just plain crack up in the moment and happen to have a gun handy. It doesn’t deter teens and young adults starving for attention, love and validation from doing what it takes to get attention either from the gang or from the media.
In short, the death penalty doesn’t work and it should be abolished. I won’t be holding my breath.
On The Other Hand…
… it’s perfectly OK to remove any semblance of reproductive choice from women who have no access to affordable health care. It seems that the “‘Just Say No’ to Everything” party is pulling out the old chestnut — abortion — to kill health care reform. They couldn’t kill it with all the scare tactics about the ‘Public Option”. God forbid, one dollar of government money be used to assist poor or even moderate income women with access to the full menu of health care options.
Of course, it’s a nice trick to kill health care reform. Women of means can always find a doctor who can help terminate a pregnancy and pay for it. It’s the poor and lower middle class who will bring children into their world of financial hardship with limited or zero access to good health care even for the child, lack of educational opportunities and general hardship. No matter whether the pregnancy was bought on by rape, incest or just plain sweet talk from an older man promising love and security but leaving as soon as the fun’s over.
Of course, poor women don’t have high-powered lobbyists on Capitol Hill. Poor women don’t have lots of money to line the campaign coffers of candidates.
Big Pharma wins. Big insurance companies win. Politicians win. People most in need of access to affordable health care….sorry.
erichempler
November 15, 2009 at 8:49 am
I think leaving the person to rot in jail is a better penalty.
Chuck G
November 15, 2009 at 9:00 am
Interesting…read the post three times and couldn’t find the words “real estate” in it once. I didn’t realize that AG has now become a forum for a select few to spew their views on politics and current events. Sad day…
erichempler
November 15, 2009 at 9:05 am
I was thinking the same thing actually…”What does this article have to do with Real Estate”, but thought I would contribute any way. Wouldn’t surprise me if they remove it.
Fred Romano
November 15, 2009 at 11:48 am
Benn said Sunday is “politics” day.
Ken Montville
November 15, 2009 at 9:25 am
Chuck and Eric — fair point. How’s this:
“Being a practicing Realtor in the MD Suburbs now and when ‘DC Sniper’ John Allen Muhammed and his sidekick, Lee Boyd Malvo were at large I can attest to the terror felt by many of the Realtors in the area. Showing houses was a nightmare. Fueling up the car prior to meeting with buyer clients was a game of cat and mouse. People that would normally be out looking for houses decided to hold off. Sellers that might have listed their homes delayed.
Putting a crimp in the local real estate market certainly deserves a severe penalty but the Wall Street bankers and mortgage securities packagers aren’t on death row. They get millions in retention bonuses instead. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not for letting mass murderers off the hook. Killing them in the name of some sort of societal justice, on the other hand, is wrong.”
Does that feel better?
Chuck G
November 15, 2009 at 9:43 am
Ken,
Nice comeback.
This part — ““Being a practicing Realtor in the MD Suburbs now and when ‘DC Sniper’ John Allen Muhammed and his sidekick, Lee Boyd Malvo were at large I can attest to the terror felt by many of the Realtors in the area. Showing houses was a nightmare. Fueling up the car prior to meeting with buyer clients was a game of cat and mouse. People that would normally be out looking for houses decided to hold off. Sellers that might have listed their homes delayed…”
..was probably a relevant post for real estate — what, 2 years ago?? If that was truly the point of this post, you did a superb job disguising it.
What’s next, Roe v Wade? Health care reform? Gun control? Oh wait, you already covered those too.
Joe Loomer
November 15, 2009 at 10:32 am
It was my understanding that Sundays where an “Open Forum” day – one where Greg Cooper and others posted politically-charged articles (like this one).
The homicide rate in the United States has declined to levels last seen in 1966.
Non-fatal firearm-related violent crime has plummeted since 1993.
Property Crime has decreased every year since 1975.
All of this while the percentage of crimes reported to the police has increased almost six percent since 1993.
Maybe they’re not scared of the death penalty – maybe they’re too busy huggin’ trees or taking their skanks to get an abortion, but an eye-for-an-eye is fine with me. Let’s just make it quicker – ESPECIALLY for the 9/11 whackos and any child-killer.
When Ted Bundy was fried, a DC-area disc jockey by the name of the “Greasman” – you may remember him – urged everyone to call all their friends and relatives in Florida and ask them to turn off all their lights and appliances to make sure the state had enough juice to do the job. Pretty macabre.
Navy Chief, Navy Pride.
Rob
November 15, 2009 at 10:44 am
I say dump the “Politics” category of AG. Agree or disagree with this post (I disagree) I don’t want to read this or any other person’s commentary on the death penalty or other politcal issues. This is the second time for me wanting to dump AG from RSS feed. Another option would be for AG to create another site called, P.A.G. (Political Agent Genius)! Wow..has a nice ring to it.
Bob
November 15, 2009 at 11:20 am
What Joe said.
Proud of the Navy Chief.
Chuck G
November 15, 2009 at 11:43 am
@Rob…. amen to that. Until today, I didn’t even realize AG had a Politics section. I’ve got no objection to politics as they relate to real estate. As much as we’d like to think otherwise, the two are forever joined at the hip. But the last thing I want to read on Sunday morning (or any morning for that matter) is unrelated garbage like this.
Perhaps it needs a separate feed address so one can pick and choose what topics they want in their reader.
Ken Montville
November 15, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Joe – I do, indeed, remember the Greaseman. He was kind of the precursor to Howard Stern. Who knows, maybe I’ll become known as the “shock jock” of AG (not really). I like stats but unless you can really show causation I stick with my original premise that the death penalty just erodes our own societal values.
BTW (to all), I “shared” this link on my Facebook page (shameless self promotion) and got the following comment from a fellow Realtor:
“I see you sparked some debate with this one. There are some nasty comments on this forum
I personally agree with you. I have long said the death penalty doesn’t work to deter crime. Nor does it work to make the families feel better. When it’s all said and done, nothing has changed. Your loved one is still gone. I’m with you too on healthcare reform.
From one liberal to another, I say good post!”
One last thing: I understand Sunday is “Politics” day. Kinda like the Sunday morning talk shows you see on TV. Keep the ’em coming’. Good healthy, full-throated debate and discussion is what this country is all about.
Dan Connolly
November 15, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Hey guys, if you don’t want to read political posts, here’s a tip, don’t read them! Unsubscribe! This isn’t a blog by some Realtor association, it is Ben and Lani’s blog and it can be about whatever they want!
As for the death penalty I am for it when it’s 100% certain that you have the right guy. If there is any doubt, life in prison with no possibility of parole is fine with me. I worry about executing innocent people who are railroaded, framed, caught up by mistaken identity, etc.
Benn Rosales
November 15, 2009 at 1:09 pm
Thanks for that Dan, I wish we were that small or that simple- truthfully, we’re listening.
We don’t edit commentary, nor do we assign topics, the roughly 70 writers here are not editorialized, we simply try to maintain over 100 categories, politics being one of them- we support our writers, and will always, so long as they’re willing to stand by their opinions.
There is no possible way everyone will agree with everything that is posted on AG, nor enjoy it, we ourselves sometimes tune out what’s not for us- it’s a big site with an even bigger audience.
I liken it to the new york times really; I’ve always hated the opinion column section (namely because I rarely agree with it) but at the end of the day, it shapes a lot of the policy debate throughout the week, and it has a place in that it solidifies me in my own personal opinions.
Not every launch of a new topic is smooth, it takes adjusting to know what is really cohesive but drives debate. Those of you that are critical of the politics category can play a role by simply commenting and promoting what you feel is content you do appreciate. If something gets no reaction and falls flat, obviously the writer will probably abandon the subject.
Screaming at an A-type personality to do something is tantamount to challenging them to continue to upset you. 😉
This is a serious subject, and it’s incredibly well written, agree or disagree, Ken is a most welcome addition to AG.
For further feedback, feel free to drop us a line: talk at agentgenius . com
Benn Rosales
November 15, 2009 at 1:44 pm
UPDATE: New AG Poll released! Check the sidebar, or political posts on AG, help us shape future debate topics.
Chuck G
November 15, 2009 at 3:22 pm
@Benn I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t follow AG quite close enough to know that Sundays were the designated op ed days, nor that you even had a Political section on the site. Like probably many other readers, I follow the content from a feed reader, so it’s not always obvious out which heading a particular post comes from. Hence, my surprise to see a non-RE related political opinion piece in my reader. Bottom line, it’s your site and you can do with it as you please. Thank goodness for the First Amendment…
Since you do offer everyone such a wide variety of reading material under the 6 main topics at the top, any thoughts to assigning a different feed for each? That way, readers can dial into which topics they want to read, and tune out what they don’t….
Greg Cooper
November 15, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Ken,
Well done….while I don’t agree, there are a number of fair points. I too wrestle with whether it even works anymore. It’s not that the useless piles of (the convicted) protoplasm don’t deserve it. To me it takes so long to execute to even have an impact let alone be a deterrant. As that great politician Charles Barkley once said, ‘convicted killers should be offed on their way from the courthouse back to the jail cell as soon as they’re convicted.’ Absurd….. but it WOULD have an impact. In fact this whole discussion has got me thinking about how we should be treating the dirt ball who shot up Fort Hood. Hmm. I feel next week’s post coming on.
Ken Montville
November 15, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Thanks for disagreeing without being disagreeable, Greg. You’re right. We don’t agree and your point about the length of time between sentencing and, er, execution is absolutely right on.
As a practical matter, most death sentences are just a way to keep people in prison and isolated. So why not just get rid of it and set up a place for the most heinous criminals – like SuperMax – and stop pretending like the death penalty works.
Thanks, Dan, for stepping up…and thanks, Benn, for the support (and I voted: “I’ll read anything on AG.” but, hey, that’s just me).
Matthew Rathbun
November 15, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Ken, I respect your opinion and the support you’ve given to your feelings.
I completely disagree, but respect your position. I think that most people who make mistakes are redeemable. However, there are a certain (very small portion) of people who are so evil that even if they are sorrowful, the only reasonable punishment is to be removed from the earth.
As someone who was pumping gas at the exact spot of one of his victims, not an hour before the homicide – this hits a bit close to home. I’ve often thought about what would have happened to my wife and three daughters had I been at that gas station in Massaponax just an hour later. Anyone who would have removed the protection and love that I give to my children should be removed from the earth. Someone who does that to multiple people and families needs to have had this happen much earlier than it has.
If this post was written from a immediate family member of one of his victims, I would applaud their forgiveness and benevolence, but still disagreed.
Here’s the off-the-charts crazyness of this argument: People are upset that a cold murderer is put to death for his crimes but claim “women’s choice” when murdering a innocent child, who has yet to even had a chance to call her “mommy”. This child never had a chance to love, be loved, laugh, play or look at the beautiful ocean in the beginning of September as the sun is setting.
If you wish to abort a child, you should have to look at her small innocent and fragile face and pull the trigger yourself. I see little difference between the serial killer and those who conduct abortions.
I’ll offer this compromise on the issue – Anyone who supports removing the death penalty may have my support, but only if you agree to a.) pay for the bill of the next 40 years of free cable and food for the serial killer and b.) stop killing children. There – everyone gets to live.
People wanted to bring politics to AG – there you go…
Tod Edwards
November 15, 2009 at 6:36 pm
This does seem to be pushing the relevance envelope…
Joe Loomer
November 16, 2009 at 6:18 am
@Ken = Show causation? So the statistics are not relevant? If homicide has gone down, and non-fatal firearm crime has gone down, and property invasion, theft, assault, and virtually every other violent felony has gone down – AT THE SAME TIME AS REPORTING OF CRIME HAS GONE UP – what more do you need?
If this is your idea of not showing causation I’d hate to read another post from you where you attempt to use actual statistics to prove YOUR point. By the way, mine came from the US Department of Justice – Office of Justice Programs – check ’em out – http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov
So, either we just decided to be nicer to each other, or SOMETHING is deterring capital crime. Could it be the assault weapons ban – oh, wait a minute, we don’t have one of those anymore.
The http://www.fbi.gov site also has some awesome stats.
As for your facebook buddy stating it does not work “to make the families feel better” – how the hell did he prove that? And who the hell would feel better about putting another human being to death? “Closure” would be a better word.
Doesn’t really matter – y’all will be on my side of the argument five seconds after you find out a loved one of yours was murdered.
Oh – and Matthew Rathbun just became one of my favorite people….
Navy Chief, Navy Pride
Ken Montville
November 16, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Matt — it seems like we’re on opposite sides of the room on this. I know this tends to be a highly emotional topic which creates almost instantaneous and visceral responses. I understand how revenge and the need for closure and retribution can drive people to demand the death penalty. My point is this: no matter if you kill the murderer, his family and everyone associated with him it won’t bring you back. Your wife will be without a husband and your children will be without a father.
Lock ’em up and throw away the key? Sure. Gitmo? Sounds fine to me. Killing to avenge murder brings us to the murderers level. Something that, as a society, I think we should avoid.
Now, about reproductive choice in the context of the health care reform debate. My only point, here, is that the Republicans in Congress are trying, by any means necessary, to kill health care reform. No amount of tea parties, screaming town hall meetings, Public Option scare tactics has stopped it, yet. So about the only thing left is to grab at the hottest of hot button issues. I think they’re called “wedge” issues for a reason. They remove any room for compromise and rational debate.
My point is this: men and women of means will always be able to obtain health care. Good health care. What this reform effort is about is making it affordable to the large numbers of people who make a choice between eating and going to the doctor, who lose their job and have to make a choice between paying high COBRA costs or going without. The Republicans in Congress seem determined to kill this bill and, as a result, have chosen an issue they know will polarize. It just ain’t right.
Ken Montville
November 16, 2009 at 2:24 pm
Joe — I have no doubt your stats are legit. I’m just trying to see how the death penalty deters “non-fatal firearm crime”, for example. Does the criminal stop and think, “Hey, I might get caught and executed so I’ll just shoot him in the leg?” Theft, assault, etc. are not capital crimes and I chalk it up to better law enforcement.
There is an obesity epidemic (to which I am contributing). Does that mean hunger and malnutrition is being reduced?
Bob Wilson
November 16, 2009 at 10:44 pm
“it just aint right.”
I honestly believe that you dont have a clue about many aspects of this bill, but its easy to blame it on partisan politics. Your generalizations are absurd.
Joe Loomer
November 17, 2009 at 6:10 am
Ken, non-fatal firearm crimes do not necessarily involve a weapon actually discharging.
As for health care – our Senator – Johnny Isakson – was in Augusta yesterday and I went to hear him speak. Yes, he’s a politician, but it was obvious after about ten minutes he knew what he was talking about. Health care “reform” – as you call it – actually HAS been stopped. All the tea parties and town hall meetings apparently brought out the “ugly American” in some folks who actually decided to find out what this whole “freedom of speech” thing was all about. Who ever told you they where all Republicans? Acorn?
Didn’t Democrats actually SCHEDULE those town meetings to talk to THEIR constituents, Republican, Democrat, Independent, all of them? Wasn’t the purpose to get the facts out and see what the people they actually represent thought?
As someone who has lived with socialized medical care for nearly 30 years – courtesy of the military medical complex – I am very proud of the fact that I’ve worked my way to a situation where I can now chose my providers and get the hell away from that system (what do you think Walter Reed is? THAT is what you’re asking for).
Joe Loomer
November 17, 2009 at 6:12 am
Oh, by the way – for all you folks that do actually contact your representatives in Congress – Senator Isakson said send an email or make a phone call – DO NOT WRITE A LETTER.
Why? All the anthrax crap has that stuff so irradiated and proccessed it is no longer legible by the time it gets to their actual office.
Navy Chief, Navy Pride
Ken Montville
November 17, 2009 at 7:20 am
Bob – “absurd generalizations”. Sheese, I didn’t realize I needed a ten page White Paper with footnotes. Get a grip. This is a blog, not graduate school.
Joe – as ex-military you have access to some of the best medical care int he world at affordable cost or no cost. I don’t begrudge you that, in the least. I’m saying allow those who were unable to serve in the military (for medical reasons, say) to have similar access to affordable health care.
Brad Rachielles
November 17, 2009 at 1:23 pm
This is clearly your blog and you call the shots, but my reason for reading is to get the best in reqaol estate thought. There is lots of material for posts. If I want to get other news and comment there are many other places for that.
if you are intent on covering these issues, maybe another broad spectrum blog is in your future, but I don’t think being all things to all people on a specialized blog is appropriate. Stick to the knitting.
Brad Rachielles
November 17, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Sorry for typos. This is why I don’t blog.
Ken Montville
November 17, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Brad, heading to the store for yarn and knitting needles as we speak. Stay tuned to next Sunday when ” sticking to my knitting” will be in full evidence.
Brandie Young
November 17, 2009 at 5:49 pm
Hi Ken,
Off topic, but a quick comment on this part of the arcticl “Wall Street bankers and mortgage securities packagers aren’t on death row. They get millions in retention bonuses instead. ”
IMHO, that’s a little off base. I believe (and could be wrong) that the people that got those retention bonuses were placed in those positions to unwind the mess – they were not the ones that made it.
There’s an open letter on the NY Times site from Jake DeSantis, an executive vice president of the American International Group’s financial products unit, to Edward M. Liddy, the chief executive of A.I.G. where he says:
“I was in no way involved in — or responsible for — the credit default swap transactions that have hamstrung A.I.G. Nor were more than a handful of the 400 current employees of A.I.G.-F.P. Most of those responsible have left the company and have conspicuously escaped the public outrage.
“After 12 months of hard work dismantling the company … we in the financial products unit have been betrayed by A.I.G. and are being unfairly persecuted by elected officials. In response to this, I will now leave the company and donate my entire post-tax retention payment to those suffering from the global economic downturn. My intent is to keep none of the money myself.
…. Like you, I was asked to work for an annual salary of $1, and I agreed out of a sense of duty to the company and to the public officials who have come to its aid….
I never received any pay resulting from the credit default swaps that are now losing so much money. I did, however, like many others here, lose a significant portion of my life savings in the form of deferred compensation invested in the capital of A.I.G.-F.P. because of those losses. In this way I have personally suffered from this controversial activity — directly as well as indirectly with the rest of the taxpayers.”
There’s more … but you get the gist. The misperception is a fanastic example of how the media can change perception.
James Malanowski
November 17, 2009 at 6:34 pm
The death penalty would be much more effective as a deterrent if the span of time between sentencing and carry-out of the sentence wasn’t so long. As someone said earlier, shoot ’em outside the back door of the courthouse. Hell, televise it. Throw up 30′ big screens for public viewing! And make it messy. Go back to drawing-and-quartering or boiling in oil.
I’d venture to say that you’d see a significant drop in crime if that were the case. Similar to the drop in crime where concealed carry is legal.
With the current system there is a small downside to those that are apt to do the deeds in the first place. 3 hots and a cot along with free cable, weight room, medical, dental, etc etc for the next 8 to 20 years with a thousand of their closest friends is not a bad deal to these folks.
Dan Connolly
November 18, 2009 at 12:58 am
There are some people who argue that the availability of abortion has brought the crime rate down. Not so many babies born into homes where they aren’t wanted, raised by teenage moms on crack, with nothing much to eat and no real chance for a good life. Not so many of those disfunctional kids have reached maturity, hating life and the rich bastards who have what they don’t….
I say stuff like this, partly just to get a reaction, because I am personally am against abortion.
But I am also against the government telling people what they can and cannot do with their own bodies. I think doctor assisted suicide should be legal as well! If someone is in excruciating pain and wants to die with dignity who am I to stop him?
Death penalty? If you have the absolute proof, like the guy who kidnaps a 14 year old and keeps her prisoner for 10 years raping her every day? Yeah, I think he should die for his sins, slowly and painfully.
Ken
November 18, 2009 at 5:09 pm
Ken:
Don’t be dissauded from sharing your political or other views on this Website/blog. Realtors have opinions on topics other than buying or selling homes, and I read this site to get those views. If I hire a realtor, I want to be able to talk with him or her about something other than spending $$$ on a house; I want to know I have hired a whole person with views, feelings, etc. Even if I don’t agree with those views, at least I know I can have a conversation with him or her about an important issue. It gets boring if it is “all business.”
So I encourage you to keep writing what you believe, Ken. Whether I agree or not (and in this case I strongly agree–the death penalty has never been and will never be any good) I at least know that you can converse on something other than your profession.
Thanks for shaing!
~Ken R.
Joe Loomer
November 19, 2009 at 5:34 am
Ken, you stated: “as ex-military you have access to some of the best medical care in the world at affordable cost or no cost. I don’t begrudge you that…”
Did you know that military pay for their own health care while being taxed for medicare at the same time? Did you know the premiums and co-pays have gone up consistently for the last ten years? Did you know we do not have the right to chose our primary care providers? Did you know a “second opinion” in Tri-care typically comes from another doctor in the same clinic of the same hospital? Did you know if the government doesn’t want to stock your drug, you HAVE to accept an alternative drug therapy or pay out the nose fo the drug the doctor prescribed (even though we have insurance)? I won’t begin to speak of the quality of the actual hands-on care, that could take down AG’s server.
Veterans know what socialized health care looks and feels like and that’s why we don’t want it. We do need to make it affordable, but I don’t want Uncle Sam anywhere near it. Please don’t comment about your perception of the quality of care We get until you experience it first-hand.
Navy Chief, Navy Pride