29 Comments

1. 

   Brian Block

   May 10, 2009 at 7:10 am

   Matt,

   I think if you look hard, you can definitely find at least 10! Perhaps even just in Virginia…

   Anyways, I’m pretty new to the whole Broker role, but I’ll take a crack at a few of your questions.

   Online education vs. classroom education —

   7+ years ago I took my pre-licensing class online Having graduated law school just a few years earlier, the pre-licensing class with its emphasis on contract and property law was pretty much an easy review so I didn’t see an issue with going through the material this way.

   Fast forward to GRI, CRS, and Broker’s classes — I took these classes in the classroom, and I’m convinced that there’s no substitute for the interaction between students and teacher and the new ideas and questions that flow during the discussions in the classroom setting. I can’t imagine that I would have been half as prepared or learned half as much had I not been in the classroom for these courses.

   Next month, I’ll be starting to teach the pre-licensing classes for potential agents and hope to not only help people pass the salesperson exam but also to inspire them towards a career in real estate.

   So, while there are certain short courses that may lend themselves well to online reading, or a webinar, overall the meatier subjects should be completed in a classroom!

   50 Hours of CE!:

   Matt, I’d have to disagree with a requirement to take this much continuing education. The best education in real estate comes from the learning that happens during transactions — not from sitting in a classroom. Sure, everybody needs those yearly reminders of ethics and Fair Housing, but we learn best by doing. Agents will make mistakes, mess up deals, lose deals, etc. and have questions — and it’s the job of the broker to help out with those questions and help the agents learn from these mistakes.

   Besides, between real estate CE (both VA and DC) and legal CE requirements, I already spend enough time in the classroom.

   Mentors: Excellent idea. Anyone in their early years of real estate needs and probably wants a mentor and what better way to ensure that your rookie agents are not out there screwing everything up. We’re establishing a mentoring program at our brokerage that will be in force for new agents until they complete a set number of transactions. I think setting it up on a transaction basis is a better system rather than a time system. An agent who completes 20 transactions in 6 months will have learned infinitely more than one who’s been selling real estate for 2 years but only completed 8 deals!

   Overseeing 20 agents: I see no reason to impose this limit. If each of these 20 agents were producing significant numbers, okay, but we know that most offices are not like that. The 80/20 rule applies almost everywhere. I’ve got double the number at about 42 agents in my office.

   I’d go on and on with some ideas on your other questions, but I’ll leave those for some others to answer. Besides, I expect to see you later this week and we can continue the discussion offline if you’d like.

   Some thought-provoking stuff. I don’t think the situation in our industry is as dire as you might see it, but then again you might be more jaded than I am. Maybe I just need to remove my rose-colored glasses.

   Reply
2. 

   Matthew Rathbun

   May 10, 2009 at 7:28 am

   In reference to being jaded… My entire day is surrounded by complaints against and interactions with agents who simply don’t understand the regulations….or worse yet – don’t care.

   As far as “on the job training”, this would be an effective use, if the agent was learning the right stuff. Or if they knew when to ask for help, or even knew when they were in trouble. They don’t and the rules change all the time…

   As an instructor, it is truly sad how little the majority of agents know about how to handle issues or how to use critical thinking skills. Heck, I’d be happy if they could enter stuff into MLS correctly!

   There is a reason why a majority of blog posts and Twitter updates (regarding other Realtors) are negative and a sound of frustration from other practitioners.

   Brian, you’re a really good guy with a really good Brokerage, but even you probably get frustrated when dealing with certain agents…

   Reply
3. 

   Brian Block

   May 10, 2009 at 9:11 am

   One of the biggest problems (and I know this is not unique to our brokerage) is agents broadcasting questions on our intranet and asking for brokerage advice from their fellow agents who are most often equally clueless. From time to time, we have to send out reminders that brokerage questions need to be addressed to the broker.

   There are probably many agents who wouldn’t recognize an ethical violation if it slapped them in the face, let alone would they go and actually file a complaint. It’s that fear of paperwork… Like the cops who don’t arrest someone for a minor violation because they don’t want to fill out paperwork.

   I’m certain I’ll have my frustrations with particular agents — just haven’t been at the helm long enough yet to have many problems arise. I sometimes joke that instead of just dealing with my own problems in my sales, now as a broker I’m dealing with everyone’s problems. Though, of course, the reality is that the attraction of the job is that it allows me to deal with problems and use critical thinking and my repertoire of skills that are sometimes underutilized in just driving clients around neighborhoods to see various homes.

   Reply
4. 

   Jim

   May 10, 2009 at 10:13 am

   I know their are good agents and brokers out here but not as many as there should be. I started a few years ago and signed up with a company that offered in house training. I asked for it to be more intense but was rebuffed. I took it on my own to learn what i need to know. most class could be passed by my 11 year old.

   I found a crotchety old time realtor and asked question and learned the old school methods.

   I think one of the biggest problem we do not demand a separation of representation.
   When the objective is to charge the most possible for the least amount of work is the norm how can we look good. When someone calls big realty, it like a box of chocolate you never know what you are going to get. an agent with 20 years experience or a rookie with instruction to call when he gets into trouble.

   Reply
5. 

   rob aubrey

   May 10, 2009 at 10:22 am

   I agree with trying to find a good agent.

   The problem as I see it is that the large broker houses cater to mediocrity. It is more profitable for a company to have 100 agents doing 4 deals and a bigger split for the house than to to have 10 agents doing 40 deals. Until that changes we are kind of stuck. There are some merits to larger shops, economy of scales, but they come with a price.

   I think technology has created some leveling of the field. But it seems eventually large companies figure out an advantage.

   I tell clients whether they are a buyer or a seller, 10% of what I do is protect you from people that know what they are doing and the other 90% is protect you from people that have no idea what they are doing. It is usually 2/3rds of the way through a transaction that they understand what I mean.

   Reply
6. 

   Matt Stigliano

   May 10, 2009 at 12:05 pm

   Matthew – I know you’ve often spoken out about online education, so I thought I’d tell you my experience with it. I took all my licensing classes in a classroom. I got my license. In my first year, I was required to take 60 more hours of SAE (2 30 hour classes). I took one when I did my licensing, so I really only had one class to take. I wound up taking it online. I regret my decision.

   It was a joke. A 30 hour class reduced to a few hours of me reading some material online, taking a few quizzes, and then taking my test. I passed no problem (I was familiar with the concepts in the material, so it helped me to go through it quicker than many I’m sure). A 30 hour class reduced to me sitting at home for a couple of hours? Not acceptable. I feel guilty about it to be honest with you.

   I took 18 credit hours worth of MCE classes though…18 hours that I wasn’t required to take. Why did I take them? To learn. To figure out things I didn’t know enough about. I intend to take many more now that I’ve passed that first year and I do back the theory that the education needs to be looked at. I feel slightly ok in the knowledge that although I made the mistake of taking that online class, I am still working on my education.

   I wouldn’t be against mentoring for a year. Shame of it is that most agents could be mentored for free by people who care. I have several of those agents in my office. And my broker as well. I go over concepts, theories, and practice with them all the time. Sometimes I ask a question that doesn’t even apply to what I’m doing at the moment. Why? To learn.

   I actually like the challenge of real estate, it’s why I got into it. I didn’t dive in to “make millions” – I wanted to do something that was interesting, challenging, and rewarding. I think I found it.

   Reply
7. 

   Will

   May 10, 2009 at 1:45 pm

   You are missing one very important point to much of your piece here. That is the consumer.

   The consumer chose that agent from two hours away who put on a $20 combo-lock. The consumer failed to check their listing for accuracy. The consumer did not care (could they not be aware, as well) that their agent was working another job. The consumer failed to educate themselves on what makes a good agent, what qualifications to look for, and what ethics should be brought to the table. The consumer is the boss hiring their agent (an employee for the duration of the listing by any other words) and some consumers/bosses just look to “save” money. They work off their own net sheet and try to find the cheapest product that meets their truly uneducated needs.

   My bet is that if you asked those vendors who were “victims” of poor service you would find that they are the same types who toss away the instructions before assembling anything. They thought it was easy. They have learned their lesson.

   We don’t need more regulation. We need more consumer education. Instead of educating to use a realtor NAR and CREA need to educate (with their vast advertising budgets) what good qualities to look for in a realtor.

   I’ve also been thinking about how we, as an industry, put up this united front in the public space but are, in fact, so incredibly fractured and diverse in our practices.

   I doubt we’d find much disagreement, however, amongst those who visit this site. I’d wager you could find a whole new national-brokerage-yet-to-be-launched worth of good agents here.

   Oh… and there’s nothing wrong with taking Sundays off. Just make sure that representation can be covered or the vendor is aware that that will be happening. I mean, can whatever is so pressing on Sunday not be done on Saturday or Monday? We agents really need to stop giving our entire lives (and family time) to this business.

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8. 

   Matt Stigliano

   May 11, 2009 at 8:34 am

   Will – I see what you’re getting at, but I don’t quite agree (but, sort of do). Here’s why. I know you mean no ill will, but if I were a consumer reading those first few paragraphs, I would be immediately turned off. You just shifted the blame onto me. Whether you’re right or wrong, there is the matter of perception. The consumer that has a bad taste, now has a few paragraphs of reasons to not trust you, choose you, or think that there is any culpability in real estate circles.

   I have to say that I do think Matthew’s suggestion (and it’s one that’s been made many times) of raising the bar for education would certainly help bring us to the right place. Read my comment about the online course I took. You know what I “learned” in that “30 hour” course? That if you kill a Pharaoh Ant and he doesn’t return home from hunting for food, the queen injects other ants to make them queens, so by killing one – you’re only increasing their numbers. Worst part about that fact? It was an aside by the author. Everything else was something I a) already knew or b) learned by asking a few simple questions (the class was on inspections).

   I think consumer education only works if people want it. We as agents constantly espouse the idea of educating our clients, but when a client wants to just hurriedly sign the contract, they want to sign. You can read every word to them and explain every nuance of every word – it won’t matter. They’re already hanging curtains in their head. Not everyone is like this of course, but I have come across many with that pattern of thinking. They don’t want or need the education – that’s why they hired us. I still work to help everyone of them understand what it is I’m doing, but I know it falls on some deaf ears. And I can’t say I blame them. There are plenty of times in my own daily life where I don’t want to be educated about why something is being done, I just want it done.

   I like your “new national-brokerage-yet-to-be-launched” thought. You’re probably right.

   Reply
9. 

   Ken Montville - The MD Suburbs of DC

   May 11, 2009 at 10:19 am

   Your rant points to two fundamental issues: 1) training new agents “the right way” (i.e. the Matt Rathbun way) as soon as they get licensed and 2) the “bar” new agents must clear to become licensed.

   I want to run around to all the listings in my neighborhood and say “Here, go buy a lock box at Home Depot and put your listing on Postlets and Trulia; because no one will protect your best interest better than yourself!” – your words. This points up the fact that anyone, literally, can sell real estate. You don’t need training, a license or anything else. You just need the deed that says you own the place. Are we going to require home owners to pass a test to sell their own place? I think not.

   Certainly, it would be better for the profession (alternately called an industry) if new entrants had more expertise and a better personal code of conduct but, let’s be clear, no matter what profession you’re in there are going to be incompetent or corrupt members — shady lawyers, Dr. Feelgood physicians, accountants that manipulate the numbers. Why should real estate be any different?

   As much as we like to say “we care” about our clients or anything else, we know in our heart of hearts that it’s about the money. It’s that way for individual agents and it’s that way for Brokers. No one I know does this for free (with a tip of the hat to Sellsius, who is always pushing for pro bono real estate). I want to represent my clients with professional competence and some empathy. I also want to get paid. My Broker wants to get paid and even tacks on a little fee to the transaction to make sure the lights stay on.

   Unfortunately, for Brokers, real estate ain’t as easy as it looks and agents leave quickly if they don’t think they can hack it. State and local Associations are losing membership and cutting costs (when will education see the ax in deference to political action?).

   So, as mean as this may sound, Matt — “Get over it.”

   Oh, by the way, some more reasons not to file a grievance: 1) I may have to work with that agent in a transaction and I don’t want him holding my offer back, 2) grievance, arbitration and professional standards committees are often very “chummy” and cliquish, 3) the rules for these committees and State regulatory bodies are very narrowly defined with very little room for movement, 4) a slap on the wrist is hardly worth the time and trouble…and don’t even get me started on procuring cause. Brokers don’t even go there anymore.

   Reply
10. 

    Robin Taylor Roth

    May 11, 2009 at 10:38 am

    Hey, Matt!

    We both know that, if done right, online education can be extremely effective. There are stats to show that, too.

    So, rather than wipe out an affordable, efficient option, focus instead on the careful selection of online education providers and online education programs.

    Self-paced training and education programs could be very effective, if everything we know about interactivity & testing-adaptive learning paths were built into them. Unfortunately, even after 40+ years, most self-paced computer-based training still consists of “turning pages.”

    We get better results from live online training, provided that all of the interactive capabilities of the virtual classroom system are used. A conference-style “presentation” doesn’t do it; participants must be involved & required to think and act.

    So, by all means, choose affordable online education, but choose it carefully. Ensure that it is live, interactive, objectives-based, and cost-effective.

    … Robin

    Reply
11. 

    BawldGuy

    May 11, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    Education of any sort is valuable based upon the actual knowledge, expertise, and experience of the teacher. Online, in a classroom? Doesn’t much matter, and is more a product of personal preference.

    I’d rather learn how to hit from Tony Gwynn giving an interactive webinar than a ‘never was’ on the field, one on one.

    Reply
12. 

    Matt Stigliano

    May 12, 2009 at 9:25 am

    I want to run around to all the listings in my neighborhood and say “Here, go buy a lock box at Home Depot and put your listing on Postlets and Trulia; because no one will protect your best interest better than yourself!” – your words. This points up the fact that anyone, literally, can sell real estate. You don’t need training, a license or anything else. You just need the deed that says you own the place. Are we going to require home owners to pass a test to sell their own place? I think not.

    I can’t speak for Matthew, but since I share his name, I’ll give my thoughts anyway.

    I don’t think this was the intention of the quote. I think the point is that if we are no more educated than the consumer, they might as well save the cash and go with themselves. If we as a profession think it just takes a sign in the yard and a few postings to Trulia to sell a house, then we might as well not bother with licenses, training, legal and ethics updates, E&O insurance, etc. We should just sell our own houses and be happy with it.

    Reply
13. 

    Joe Loomer

    May 12, 2009 at 11:24 am

    Matt,

    Please God don’t let the bottom feeders get you down!

    As a leader in my market center (I am not the broker, but I am on our Associate Leadership Council), I routinely assist other agents with contracts, listing presentations, statistics, anything they need to be the best possible agent for their clients.

    Your issues, and your recent experiences – seem to have driven your entry, and may I apologize for those of us in this industry that simply refuse to act in the fashion of those agents you decry.

    At the end of the day, most of how we handle our interpersonal relationships – business or otherwise – can typically be traced to to the old “Everything I Ever Needed To Know I Learned In Kindergarten” adage.

    Our focus in our market center (in which you will find well over the 50 good men and women required to save us from His wrath) is always looking forward, being proactive in being our area’s leader in agent eductation (mostly in classroom settings). I am proud to bellow a hearty “You Bet You Can!” when I’m asked by newer agents if they can tag along on a listing presentation or with my Buyers.

    Every single day in our market center calendar typically has at least two training events – including studies of Gary Keller’s MREA, Facebook strategies, Mentoring groups, how to compile relevant statistics for listing presentations, and much, much more.

    Please Matt – come back to the light – we are out there, and we are legion.

    A Good Man

    Navy Chief, Navy Pride

    Reply
14. 

    Joe Loomer

    May 12, 2009 at 11:56 am

    Hindsight got the better of me – I meant to focus that post on the culture we’ve created here to fight off the negativism and bad practices that indeed exist in our area as much as in Matt’s. Came across as a “welcome to the Joe show.” My apologies!

    Reply
15. 

    Matthew Rathbun

    May 12, 2009 at 12:04 pm

    All…. When I wrote this post, it was to center on two primary points. One, I had; had a particular bad week of “Wild West” issues and agents complaining verbally but not wishing to do anything.

    Two, is the fact that with all the lip-service regarding “raising the standards / bar” I feel that too many agents / brokers focus on other people changing, instead of themselves.

    I appreciate all the feedback and great comments here.

    Ken – We’ll just have to agree to disagree on all accounts…

    Reply
16. 

    Marvin Jensen

    May 20, 2009 at 11:51 pm

    Matt, Right on! As soon as we stop giving real estate licenses like they were in cereal boxes, I think we will get better quality agents. We have been working on better licensing standards in Utah, this year we increased classroom hours to get a license by 40%. We also increased the renewal requirements from 12 to 18 hours per renewal, still low, but getting better. Since these had to be approved by the state legislature, it was quite an accomplishment. This is why a strong RPAC is good in your local areas.

    Reply
17. 

    Kay Wood, Broker Associate

    September 3, 2009 at 2:43 am

    Education – YES more

    Mentoring – Can’t believe the industry doesn’t require – look at appraisers, nail techs, massage
    therapists, etc.

    Professionalism/raising the bar — quit being like an organization of corporate flunkies and be business oriented vs pay check oriented. If you build a business vs earn a vacation check and work the business full-time then you can call yourself an agent (if belong to NAR then REALTOR). If not, just stick to your full-time job and let the REAL REALTORS step up. As an agent who has sold over 800 homes in 9 years it is difficult to explain to a prospect that we aren’t all alike because the industry doesn’t promote full-time workers…instead it is like Mary Kay or Amway —- work part time and become a gazillonaire…not!

    Reply
18. 

    Michelle Carter

    September 25, 2009 at 5:25 pm

    Matt, I’m seeing more posts like yours from thinkers, movers, and shakers from the real estate industry. I subscribe to many blogs, facebook updates, and twitter feeds and it’s a constantly scrolling stream of frustration. I also leave my desk at the end of the day and listen to my husband (who I consider to be one of those good agents) talk about all the ridiculousness he has to deal with each day, just trying to work with agents who don’t understand the basic real estate contract, the process, and/or choose not to for their own benefit. Let’s also not forget to mention the completely unprofessional emotional meltdowns I’ve personally seen many an agent have when something doesn’t go their way! It’s hardly surprising the public perception of REALTORS is in the toilet, and now it seems that the industry’s perception of itself (at least amongst those who really care) is following suit.

    All of this is a shame because being a REALTOR, when done WELL, is not an easy job – particularly in this market. The foreclosure market has changed the game, partly because banks don’t play by the rules and partly because foreclosures turn what is perceived to be a buyer’s market a seller’s market in many market segments. Agents are working with asset managers instead of home-owners and listing agents with large books of REO listings have turned into nothing more than systematic zombies, going through the motions as best as they can. Short-sales are a crap shoot – agents can work months for a deal that has a 1 in 3 chance of closing. Sellers are often in financial and therefore emotional distress. Buyers are either searching for the seller’s blood in the water that the media has told them is there or are too timid to jump off the fence. Meanwhile, tighter credit standards make it harder for buyers to qualify for loans. When they do qualify, and if they’re in the bottom end of the market, they’re jumping into multiple offer situations that leave them exhausted and disheartened – after a lot of work, many buyers just give up. On top of all of this, agents are being told they should be blogging, tweeting, facebooking, and LinkingIn!

    The reason you’re not finding too many people who are good at it, is because it’s a lot harder than most people think (and I’m sure you know this from personal experience.) The problem, therefore, as you said, is how easy it is to get a license and how little experience you need to actually start practicing (as in… none!) I think there are many, many things that brokers and state boards should be doing to fix this and you’ve listed some of them here, but steering a ship this large is tough, especially when the passengers are all independent contractors who cannot be directed in any meaningful way by their brokers. (Maybe that’s where we should start?)

    Finally, I have always found that the good agents aren’t the ones who appear on your radar because they’re out there busy doing their job. My husband’s mantra is to not engage in much of the silliness he encounters; he just moves it along and gets on with the job of helping his clients. So, when you’re in our positions, the squeaky wheels are all we see and this can definitely make you jaded.

    Reply
19. 

    Jacci

    January 6, 2010 at 12:06 am

    I would agree, agents should be required to have more training. There is nothing worse then having to deal with another agent who has no clue what is going on. I’m not just talking about new agents, this is becoming more of a problem with agents that have been in the business for 4 to 5 years. I’ve been a realtor in the Austin area for over 15 years and it has been getting worse year after year.

    Reply